Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Jeremy Rivera, your unscripted SEO podcast host. I'm here with the indomitable Ryan Jones. Why don't you give yourself an intro what you do in your experience for those people who haven't had the pleasure of coming across you yet.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think anyone's actually described me as indomitable before, so that's a new one. I appreciate that. But yeah, for those who don't know me, and to avoid confusion with the other Ryan Jones that's well known in s SEO of Razorfish, I'm the marketing manager at SEO Testing. So involved in everything, marketing for them. So SEO, bit of paid when we choose to do it, social media, all that kind of thing.
Been in SEO digital marketing for just coming up to 10 years now. So I start. I started younger. I started when I was 16. Officially.
It was my first, first job, officially out of school and never left.
And yeah, worked agency side, client side, in house, freelance. I've done a bit of freelance work for people as well.
So yes, I think it's fair to say I've seen SEO and marketing from absolutely all angles.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: I love that too. I've been in that same position because it's not the same animal when you know it's your own project versus you're working on a brand and you brought in house versus freelancing. Even freelancing and agency has some pretty big differences.
Which spot so far has been your favorite?
[00:01:33] Speaker B: I think my favorite has definitely been in house with the. I think the trade off that comes. So one thing I did always appreciate about agency work was getting to work on a range of sites in different industries, sectors, all that kind of thing. Just because we know that different tactics work for different companies and different niches and that kind of thing. So it is always good to sort of get a broader broad experience. But yeah, to really dive deep into a brand and learn all about that particular sector is always. Is always really interesting. And yeah, I definitely prefer in house.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: I always likened it to driving an elephant because it doesn't corner well.
But if you keep the momentum going forward, you can smash through a lot of unexpected boundaries.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I suppose if talking about things that don't corner well, you could liken it to driving a muscle car, I suppose as well.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: That's definitely true.
So what's been the most challenging of the individual niches that you've been assigned to, either at agency or in house? What's the hardest game to play?
[00:02:49] Speaker B: I don't know whether it would be a particular sort of industry or niche or anything. But I think going back to my agency days, I think the most difficult challenges I was always presented with were when you would take on SEO work from sort of really small companies that work in sectors that just really don't have a lot of search volume at all. They have, maybe they might be pretty dominant in an industry, but it just is not known about or it doesn't get many visitors.
Like I, when I worked in an agency side, we had a client who did like industrial seals and that's all they did. And they, they absolutely dominated the market. And that any term you could think of for industrial seals, they, they would rank number one and dominated paid for them as well. So it's like they were the place to go. And I think at that point you kind of just hit a ceiling and you have the discussion of, with the client of okay, well we're, we are like, we're basically number one for everything at this point. We're still paying you however many, however much a month we're paying you. Where do we go from here? And having to then explain to him that eventually if you stop doing the SEO work, someone will overtake you. It might take a while, but someone will eventually get there.
So it becomes a communication issue of having to explain to them that now you're kind of having to pay to stay at the top of the market. And the, the only ceiling that we have now is waiting for the industry to actually become more known about or grow a little bit.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah, those obscure industries like Fry Oil Management. I've got a brand save Fry Oil.
It's very niche. I mean I've worked with, you know, poop scoopers. There was one company they did, they took old oil, they had a machine that would take oil that they took out from cars and you could heat your, your auto mechanics shop with that oil cleanly. Wow. So like super niche like application. So once you top out on that market, I guess that comes to kind of a bigger picture about SEO that I've been, that I talked touched on with Melissa Pop that a lot of SEOs just kind of look at the keyword research and say, okay, well this is the market size and that this is all it really is. And I'm going try to find the highest value keyword, you know, highest volume keyword to target.
But it leaves aside the fact that there's so many opportunities now to, to create demand, you know, to. There's different channels and methods that you can pump the, pump the gas and bring Higher visibility in those type of actions while anathema in like 2003 of like oh, that's not SEO.
Now it kind of feels like we're being called beyond the boundaries of just straight up just SEO. This is the search volume and looking for how can we do more what's been your experience in like that do more part of pushing the boundaries of what we've understood our role to be.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I completely agree with that point in the sense that I think SEO is becoming now and it will become more multidisciplined in a sense like we know that people are eventually going to start.
I don't know whether Google will be replaced completely. I doubt it ever will. But we're going to get more and more people using LLMs to search for what they need and that kind of thing. We're starting to see that now. Now I mean if we look at our analytics data, we are starting to get new trials through and things like that from people who found us using chat, GPT and that kind of thing. So one, we are going to have to look at it from that point of view. But then yeah, in terms of creating demand like we're, we're now just starting to look at it as well from a point of creating demand via social media and that kind of thing.
But it's all still linking back into, into SEO. I mean it's still, I don't know, I don't necessarily think it's an SEO problem in the sense that like we, we've hit the ceiling. Like the, the problem where that we're actually facing at the minute with like AI overviews and stuff coming out now is, is our, we've, we've seen, it's hit our own site as well in like the trend that we've seen of informational traffic going down and we're the, our new challenges now having to not necessarily create demand to account for that, but like find demand in new places to replace that lost traffic that I don't know if we're ever going to get back in terms of. I, I can only ever see AI overviews increasing and getting better as the language models improve and that kind of thing.
So it's not, I think we're having to find a replacement for that lost traffic and that will come from other search engines, social media, that kind of thing and even more traditional marketing as well.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I share your concern that the genie is out of the bottle. The Pandora's box has been opened. And what kind of opened my eyes is some of the Continuing drip of documents that have come out of the litigation against Google, kind of both proving some of the long held theories that we had. But there was a release, I think it was just yesterday where they were talking about, you know, we don't use LLMs largely within these individual signals because we want to be able to define and fine tune them. And so that was their whole like, aside from Rankbrain and one other element specifically that's very LLM in nature. They said we specifically focus and tune and we want that clarity so the engineers can turn these dials. Which coming Back to the A.J. cohn view of it's goog enough of the insidification of SERPs, the rampant population of Reddit answers popping up everywhere, AI overviews incapable of determining whether Lily Ray is nine years old or a hundred years old and the, the choking off of small publisher sites. And it means if they are, if that documentation showing that they are holding those dials and still they're not, you know, beheld to some mysterious LLM machine behind the scenes making these calls, they're choosing these SERPs, they're choosing for these search results to be this crappy, to be this difficult to find the answers. And so that's just kind of wild on one level and, and totally discouraging on the next level. And even more infuriating when you add, you know, their, they had a conference and they brought out creators who they basically told we don't owe you traffic. And if that's the, the attitude of Google towards the, the publishers who have invested, they, they are travel bloggers, they're food bloggers, they're, they're doing the things that they've been told to do that are supposed to reflect online. And then it's been rewarded like it's, there's half of a contract, a social contract that is now just being done away with piece by piece.
It is, it's a very challenging time to be a content creator when that, you know, social contract or that understood implicit side of Google of oh, we'll show you in results but you'll get the click to we're an answer engine and we don't owe you a click.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly it. And I think the moment that, I don't know, I can't remember whether it was the Wall Street Journal or wherever it was that came out, but there was that quote from the Ex Googler where it says that directing traffic to publisher sites was a necessary evil. I think the moment that that came out was I think the almost like the point of no return in, in terms of.
I think we can now say that Google are, we know that Google, I think are deliberately making results shittier in the sense that they want to promote all these AIO views and that kind of thing. And they, they, they talk about AIO views as like the next best thing and the next evolution in SERPs and that kind of thing.
Now that they're linking to their own other SERPs in it within AI overviews is I think my particular conspiracy theory is that that's all just to drive more ads traffic in the sense that someone starts with an informational query, they read the AI overview, they'll see another link in the AI review to another serp and then eventually they keep clicking until eventually, like after all these steps, eventually they're going to click on an ad and then Google will make some revenue from that. So I think that's the way they're trying to go is keep rather than sending traffic to these publishers, which has been fine for so long.
If people are eventually going to start using Google, we need to make more revenue. So let's make the results worse. Let's keep them on the SERP as long as possible and then let's eventually get them to a stage where we can take them through the whole journey from information to purchase and then when they're ready to purchase, we can send them to a PPC link that they can then go and purchase from.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: Yeah, and it reminds me so much of the wild days of Facebook before 2008 to 2010, where you could, you could make a ton of money just publishing content on Facebook. You know, you would have these algorithms that would reward your page and or profile and it was just a wild like you could get a huge amount of success.
And then the algorithm changed and now it's 100,000% pay to play.
Everything that could possibly lead to revenue is curated into the most extractive, expensive process possible. So it is, it is what it is meaningless. Meaningless. So says the teacher, you know, to quote Ecclesiastes and get super philosophical about it. But I, I think there are still, there's still meat on the bone. You know, we're not, you know. Yes, there are drops whenever AI overview comes in, but there's also some silver lining of it looks like maybe the clicks that come through LLMs are far more qualified and if they do discover your brand, it, it's a turd that gets shined.
So there's some silver in the lining.
So what's been your view or processes that you've been testing or refining in this interesting transitional state in SEO.
Where's your head been at in terms of wins or adjusting strategies?
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so for the longest time, I mean we've recently really started to look at where we're going to take our marketing going forward. Because I mean, I joined SEO testing in I think April 2023 and at that point the site was still relatively small in terms of organic search.
I think just over 2,000 organic clicks a month or something that it was getting, which for a small sort of SaaS business was still pretty good.
We were using the sort of traditional SaaS playbook of create all this great informational content, put some CTAs in there, more people see the content obviously then people convert and that kind of thing. But yeah, I got them to, I say I. We got them to a stage where we were at over 10,000 clicks a month with it, like pretty quickly. So we grew really rapidly.
I think we hit a peak of about 16,000 clicks in a month, which was great for us. And then, and then we started to see this sort of, sort of stagnation when AI overviews first started to come in. And then now we've seen a kind of drop off in terms of like AIO views at the minute have kind of hit their peak. I'm sure this, the numbers will continue to grow, so we might see even less traffic come through. But at the minute we're kind of, we're not now losing traffic as much as we were. We're kind of stagnated. So the conversation has become of where do we go now? I mean we still get a good level of organic traffic and that is what it is. That's people who will find us through researching, through a competitor or something like that. And it's like having a look at these different solutions.
But yeah, we kind of sat down and had a look at where our traffic came from, where, like where that traffic was that was converting and that kind of thing. So we kind of focused on social media which is why I've started like have a more active focus on trying to grow my social media presence. So hence why I'm all over LinkedIn like a rash and all over blue sky and, and threads and any social media that exists, I'm probably on it somewhere. And yeah, and then looking into now more trying to get featured in LLMs because we see that the, we still get really small numbers of LLM traffic, but the, the traffic that we do get from LLMs, like as you just pointed out, it is, it seems to be really high intent and it is actually converting at a much higher rate than the organic traffic that we get in terms of percentage we see more people will click on guides that we class as key events in J4 because these like really important guides and people will click on like the, the free trial button and they'll sign up to a trial.
So yeah, it's really, it's really changed. We are still creating new content. We are still trying to create as many clicks as we can through organic search because at the end of the day is still the primary acquisition channel that we have. But the way in which that we create content has changed. We've.
Whereas before we were doing keyword research, finding sort of potential, they're creating the content and distributing.
Now we're using social media for instance, as a kind of gauge of interest. And if, if one of my posts really does well on LinkedIn, then that might signify that this is something people are generally interested in. And then we'll create a piece of content for search around that and promote it that way. And that seems to be what's working at the minute.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: That's interesting because it's, you know, that kind of cross channel marketing.
Something I was discussing with Matt Brooks of SEO Tarek of, you know, how can we leverage our, our footholds elsewhere? Or really it's almost like, you know, Ross Simmons and kind of create once and redistribute forever of taking what used to be, you know, the SEO playbook was okay, you create a blog post and then I'll create another blog post and then I'll create another blog post. And it seems to me that it's actually now like horizontal versus vertical. So like, okay, I'm going to create a blog post. I'm going to create a version of it for LinkedIn Pulse. I'll create a version of it for my substack, create a version of it that's going to go out to my email newsletter followers which then also gets published to another different site and then maybe turn it into a slide deck. Save that on SlideShare. Take the video and not just post it to YouTube, but Viddler Vimeo, you know, three or four different syndicators and you know, take it through, take one piece of content through these multiple hoops, you know, find a way to turn it into a short for YouTube, you know, and then turn it into, you know, medium form content for Instagram. And so it seems, you know, that kind of horizontalization for each content piece is something that it is kind of anathema to a lot of marketing, SEO specific marketing people, because they've been used to, okay, I just need to hire content writers and they'll write a piece of content and we'll publish it as a blog.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: And then if that doesn't work, maybe build a few links as well and then see what happens.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah, and then maybe we'll get some links and then. Yeah. So I think the play, you know, is basically like broadening it out because that also increases, you know, some of those brand signals that Google says that, you know, are part of the bigger part of the matrix now. You know, I had, you know, I was working with lead truffle. They're like an AI lead qualification tool that I love because it's like you put it on the site and instead of a form it starts a text conversation, which is great. But they weren't showing up for their brand name. So it's like Google saying you want to drive branded traffic and like, well, I don't show up for my brand query and I don't know why. We've been online for over a month and build built links, have content, everything you're supposed to do, but you don't show up for your brand. And I've seen it multiple times now and I've confirmed with several other SEOers of run running into this particular problem that sometimes like your domain might be spoiled or that brand name that you have is it. The intent of it is so mixed that Google doesn't want to. Is very slow to take add a brand, you know, you know, like save fry oil. Like, that's a informational query of like, how do you save fry oil? Well, that's your brand name. It's going to take more. But you can't get those clicks which Google uses as part of your brand value. You can't show up for your own brand. So that's kind of a tricky situation.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah, we had it for a little bit as well in the sense that like, unless people like when I first started, I noticed it didn't happen for very long. But when, if you Googled SEO testing as one word, which is our brand name, it was all fine. Like our brand name would, would show up. But if you Googled SEO testing as the kind of the sort of job, as in SEO is one word and testing is one word, if they Googled that, then they would be served guides on SEO testing for a little while from like, obviously we had our guide on them, we were at the top, which was fine. But then you have like a guide from Ahrefs and other people on the web and for a little point in time, our brand search, our brand name, like didn't show up for a little bit. But yeah, that's all fine now and been sorted. I think if you search SEO testing, there's two words now. Our brand is still at the at the top and then there's all the guides underneath, which is fine.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: My solve for that actually runs counter to another thing that Googler said and very recently, which was that site that schema doesn't directly impact your rankings. And it was the week after we added the about page with site name schema onto the site and got about links to that about page that Google finally gave up the ghost and recognized that that was a valid entity. Of course, pushing your site out there and not having an about page is kind of one of those like, duh moments. But also like, you know, having not having site name schema and then adding it or doing it. I've seen the opposite too of like somebody messed with the Yoast settings and changed the site name that was reporting and their entity just tanked. They couldn't, they stopped showing up for their branded entity name. And so for Sullivan to march out there and say schema never has an impact on rankings, well, that's not true. It absolutely can in certain cases. And I'm certain that if we dug through it, we could find other examples of. Yeah, actually schema can be a ranking changer now. They'll always use their double entendres and clever ways of saying, oh well, it's not a direct ranking factor or it's not something we consider.
But you know, that's the same guys that we got put through for years and got gaslit that click signals weren't a key part of rankings. And now we know from the legal side, the DOJ found out, yes, click behavior is not just used, it's one of the three primary elements that they use to rank sites.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: So yeah, this is, this is the, this is the conversation that me and Nick had when I first started. And I remember we joked that we were saying that at the end of the day, like, even if people say it doesn't, we know that site impact, like the on site metrics have an impact on search. Like it is 100%. Like, you can't change our minds about that. And like it was, it was fine. It was good to finally see that that come out because like on one hand it was like ourselves being vindicated for having that theory in the first place, which is fine. But our theory comes from testing of like we changed the page on site metrics got better and then rankings improved and things like that. But also like the fact that Rand Fishkin for ages was shouting that from the rooftops that like on site metrics have an impact. And everyone who would like blindly follows Google lead was like, no, you're wrong, just listen to Google and that kind of thing. So it was nice to see him vindicated for that finally and that kind of thing.
But yeah, like just, just to quickly jump on what you said about schema and stuff like that. Like just from our own internal tests that we knew, like, so we have one of our standard processes for a little while was we'd have a video created for every blog post that we did that was published for YouTube and then we would put that at the top of the top of the fold on the blog as well, just in case people didn't want to scroll through and read a 2,000 word blog post, they could watch a four, five minute YouTube video.
One we found that having that video on the blog post increased the blog post performance in search, which is its own thing. But then we found that we did a split test and adding video schema to those videos then increased it even further by like 300%.
And even if they want to say that it's not a ranking factor, it's one of those ones that like, it might not be a ranking factor, it might be a ranking factor, but executing it properly on your site definitely has a positive impact.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: I love that and I love having like a concrete tangent to get into some of the more interesting results from testing. As me and my friend Michael McDougall from a right thing agency, like we're always trying to devise like next newest tests that we want to try to suss out and work out. You know, he's very into like trying to define how Google is looking at link authority and how accurate or inaccurate are these tools. Is there anything in PageRank that is truly like, you know, you can hold that up or does on its, you know, is that just such a bloated metric that you can't find any value in it? Or is there some hyper complicated way that you could test, you know, getting links from this batch of sites versus this batch of sites to kind of prove through some theory of how much of the original PageRank algorithm is still at play when it comes to links? Or is it, you know, I posited the theory that, you know, link value is largely based off of anchor text distributions.
And that was my theory behind either anchor text distributions or distance from seed of authority sites in your niche, which if you think back to like the medic update, where Suddenly, you know, Dr. Axe and all of the, you know, very well written, very well researched, incredibly deep content, but it came from a chiropractor site, suddenly got flipped overnight and now we have a. Two sentences on a WebMD site is outranking a 5,000 word essay from a PhD, but he happens to be on a, you know, a chiropractor site. So you can see, you know, there's something in that scale that got, that got tweaked in that update specifically. That was a peek behind the skirt. But there's also, you know, I have huge questions about, you know, how, how does Google actually calculate authority when it comes to what people have always assumed that PageRank has been doing?
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an interesting one. And yeah, I mean we use it primarily like one, we use it to just test our own theories and everything. Like, our site can almost be like a testing ground in itself for testing new things and that kind of thing, but also to like, we have this discussion with clients and prospective clients quite a lot in the sense of they would ask us why would we start testing when I mean, SEO testing has kind of always been done in a sort of really convoluted way in the sense like going back to when it first started even, you'd find something that you weren't necessarily happy with, whether it be a particular rank for a particular keyword and that kind of thing. You'd then change something in the hopes that that ranking would then go up and then you'd see a benefit from that. So you can kind of class that as a test anyway.
Yeah, they were like, why, why would we start testing? And, and almost the biggest factor that we have is like, especially for agencies, is it helps you prove your value because at the end of the day you do all this research into what might work and, and you have all these theories into to what to do and do we need to get links from these particular sites or do we need to improve our internal linking and that kind of thing. And at the end of the day, if you can run positive SEO tests on a client site and you can say that we, we did this, this and this over the course of this last month or whatever, and here are the results that like we can show you. The client is going to be much happier to like, to like keep going with that in a sense of like, they can see the value in the work that's been done rather than kind of having to trust the agency by saying that we did this and here are the results. And like, look at the brand search. Like, that went up so much when in actual fact that it was a different department running a TV ad that month that had an impact. And then the SEO agency is trying to claim like credit for that in some way. And it just, it absolutely helps across the board.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: I think it, yeah, it's definitely a boost to credibility. And even if the test, like doesn't actually moved the needle that much, it still boosts confidence that you're as you're professional. Professional enough to accept defeat of like, hey, we had this theory, we thought it worked, we tested it, it didn't. So we didn't go that way. Is. Is provably much more, much more effective and that keeping a client happy than, oh, we've been doing it this way for six months and it's not working.
Versus we spent the time in a month to test going in this direction to do this thing that we think will work. So I could definitely see a confidence boost on that side. What are some of your favorite SEO tests that you guys have seen recently? You might have some stats to throw out there or an experience to reference. Like, what's your, what's your favorite right now?
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think like, when it comes to that, I mean, if we look at our own site in a sense that like, we're a SaaS brand, there's always very limited in terms of stuff that we can do. But the one I like to point out to people is, I think, I mean, internal linking has always been important. We know that, but I think people like to just.
It's almost like, I think it's almost become a cookie cutter exercise in the sense, like, we'll write a blog post, we'll throw in a few internal links like where relevant, and that's that. And that's like, that's the housekeeping is done. I don't need to go back to that again. But like, I think we've. How many tests have we run for internal linking that like on our own? I think 15 or so tests where we've absolutely gone through, found a particular blog post. It's either it's underlinked or I think we can link in a better way and that kind of thing. I think almost every single one of those tests has been positive and not just positive by like 3, 4%. But I think our biggest one was like 1000% or something where we added like a, like a ridiculous number of like internal links to this, this content. And the clicks I just shot up completely. But I mean for every, for every positive test there's a negative test and that kind of thing. Like we've got like test examples where from people who have built out a category page for an E commerce site and they've added loads of unique information and they've linked to buying guides and stuff and it's had this hugely positive impact.
And then on the flip side of that, we've had another E commerce site that's done the same thing in a slightly different way and it's not had as much of an impact.
So it is always interesting to see that way. But this is why we just go back to testing as a way of one, it's a way to, you can kind of use it to inform strategy going forward. You can use it to. I think one of the key uses as well is to avoid any costly mistakes, especially for like big sites where, okay, we've got an idea. This is kind of risky, but let's go with it anyway. And then we'll see traffic tank. And that's like not the, the situation that you want at all, but when you can do it, when you can take a section of a site and say, okay, we'll test on this specific section, see what happens if clicks go up. That can kind of give what like not just you, but also stakeholders and much more confidence to say, okay, let's spend that budget, let's do that work and kind of like that. But yeah, it is always interesting. I think one of the common myths about testing is that like, if one thing works, then it will work for everyone. Like for us, content refreshes have been a great source of success in a sense, like taking older blog posts and re uploading that, like adding new useful content and changing the structure and that kind of thing. And that's been really beneficial for us. But for another website, content refreshes might not work as well or might not work at all. And then for them they can test different ways to grow, like whether that's new content or internal linking or external linking and that kind of thing. And they can test that way.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Is it something where like you can test, you know, within or against like industries to try to see if there's best practices that are different for like a real estate agent and Lake Norman versus, you know, a different niche. Have you done any cross industry testing as far as like executing on a particular strategy?
[00:34:55] Speaker B: Not that we've done. No. I, like, I think this is one. We could probably find some relative industry like benchmarks if we went through and looked at all our client data and, and did it that way or, or used AI to do it like that slightly. One of the useful, like the uses of AI could be to do something like that and like split websites out by industry and that kind of thing and then say, okay, what tests have been, what tests have worked for this industry? But yeah, I mean in terms of we haven't necessarily done any of that ourselves. That's probably something that we could certainly do which would then, that could then become like a growth loop in itself, like publish that kind of industry study and that kind of thing. So I want to thank you for that because that's a really good idea.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: You're welcome. Come on the podcast and get new content strategies for your SaaS.
No, I haven't done that. I'm going to go do that.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll do it and then I'll tag you in the post that I share and say this was all Jeremy's idea so you can go to him, but here are the results.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: I love it.
As we kind of wrap up, what's a test that you recommend that the SEO or team listening to this podcast goes and tries to do in the day after listening to this? So super actionable. What's your highest value thing that you, you want them to go out and.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Test or do, I would say, and it goes back to what we talked about a little earlier, but don't.
If, if you've got areas on your site where you're not implementing or not utilizing structured data schema, that kind of thing, go through and test that. Like if you've got videos on your site that don't have video schema implemented, go and do that. If you have author pages that don't have schema, going to that even like about pages, like you said that like if, if there is a, a section of your site or something that you do on your site that could benefit from schema, implement that and just see what happens.
Because from looking at our site tests and the tests of some clients as well, like the majority of those test results are overwhelmingly positive, whether it's because it's a ranking factor or not, or whether it just helps Google decide that, okay, this brand is good at this thing and okay, we'll rank them higher here and that kind of thing. So whether it's direct or indirect, I don't know.
But from test data, it's it's, it is one of the most important things you can do.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: Fantastic. I agree. And I love that direction. Thanks so much for your insight.
Shout out your domain company where people can find you on socials.
Yep.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: So if you're interested in starting testing for your business, you can go to seotesting.com we've got a 14 day free trial for anyone. You can add up to 30 sites, I think, per trial. So go and start test on client sides, your own sites, test sites, whatever.
If you want to talk about testing with me, you can find me on all the socials, LinkedIn, BlueSky, Twitter or X or whatever it's called. Now you can Ryan Jones, SEO and yeah, that's the same across blue sky and Twitter.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks so much for your time.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Thank you for having me on.
