Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Jeremy Rivera, your unscripted SEO podcast host. I'm here with Jeremy Moser. Don't get confused with the different Jeremy's will be a lot of Jeremy this, Jeremy that.
But I'm curious. Let's start with a little bit of history Jeremy and tell me, where did you start in SEO and just kind of quickly run through a little bit of your, your bona fide, if you will.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for having me on the show. And yeah, I first started really coming out of college and, and just on the early fronts there graduating, I worked at a couple small businesses in the local area where I was at. So I went to school in Denver, Colorado and then did some SEO there with small businesses kind of getting my hands dirty there on a few campaigns. So it was a little more on like the traditional sort of local SEO and for local companies in that area.
And then I found a good role at agency that was doing content marketing in general.
So pretty heavy on the SEO side there, working with kind of diverse range of clients.
I spent about three or four years there working directly with clients. So moving up from doing everything from like, you know, traditional content writing to actual content strategy to moving more into the distribution side of things on the link building end. And that's really where I found the most enjoyment on the SEO side was like doing just promotion of the actual content that companies were doing there. And like how do we actually get eyeballs on it? How do we get traffic to the content that we're creating?
And so from there launched usurp with my co founder and it's been about I guess eight years or nine years at this point since we launched and been going strong since then and working with a lot of cool clients.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: It sounds, it's interesting to me that the distribution side should appeal to you so heavily because usually that's the teeth pulling side of things.
Certainly to get approval from a budget eight years ago you had to try to explain page rank and the value of links.
But that math has kind of shifted since ChatGPT and the launch of LLMs.
How are you looking at the that shift in understanding in C Suite? Has it been beneficial that there's a new player in the game in the conversation?
I have my own opinion on it, but I don't want to spoil the waters. Want to get your unsullied opinion on it?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think I really started to notice kind of a big change in discussions in like the end of 2025. Really is this coming into play and so before that, I mean, typically speaking, most folks that had found us, at least over time, they knew that they needed link building, they had tried sort of other providers there that they maybe found were lower quality or just didn't kind of fit the mold for what they were looking for. And so a lot of the benefit that we had seen with folks that we had worked with is they came in pretty educated. And so that helped us a lot in terms of just having a good conversation of like not not needing to talk about the, you know, fundamentals of SEO and why links are important. And it was more on how do we make a program here that actually fits, fits our goals, increases rankings for some of these core really difficult pages. And then like you mentioned, I think AI search has kind of changed the narrative a little bit here. For better or worse at this point.
I think a lot of our discussions have, you know, shifted towards how do we show up in that and then a little bit less on the SEO front when our perspective is really like, they're both just complimentary, right? So like the things that you do well in SEO, at least in our kind of opinion and our results for clients we've seen, whenever we do good stuff in SEO, it shows up better in AI search search and increases visibility there. If we do specific stuff on the brand side that you could argue is maybe a little bit more geared towards AI search, that also impacts positively on the SEO side. So we find that all the conversations, like when we actually dig into it, boil down to just a fundamentally good SEO strategy with a little bit more brand building in there as well. And so from the link side, particularly like in those conversations with C suite and with VPs that we're talking to on a daily basis, it is getting a little bit easier for us, I'd say, to just showcase how it impacts both, because we do find that, I mean, I think HubSpot came out with some recent data that I had shared that was like maybe 92%, I think I want to say that their, their data showed was, you know, getting mentioned basically in LLMs, 92% of it boiled down to content that wasn't on your own domain. So that'd be like, you know, social media links from other sites, directories, roundups, listicles, all the sort of like off page traditional SEO stuff that you would do. And so I think it does help us a lot in those conversations to just have some good quality data there and really point to it and say, okay, here's how people are showing up at, you know, particularly like the bottom of the funnel in AI search and typically speaking that points to like link building or off page SEO in some format.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: I'm curious, what are your thoughts? Chris Tweeten he does Calgary SEO Space Bar Collective. I think he was talking about the, the poison pool effect of as we build, you know, this digital marketing system where we're, you know, pushing data out to build visibility to, you know, is there, is, is there a certain point where we're, we're kind of, you know, it's like the snake eating its own tail when it comes to LLMs and you know, there's no new information out there, you know, it becomes very toxic very quickly. What are your thoughts on the overuse of LLMB tactics? I think Lily Ray and a couple others pointed out that it seems like Google might be responding negatively to the sudden push in listicles everywhere, which was the first generation response.
Obviously LLMs can't remain dumb forever. It seems right now they're rather simp simplistic or much more simplified versus the level of complexity that I've traditionally associated with link building. The level of savvy analysis hasn't really been there. So are we just se sowing the seeds of our own destruction by again rushing for all these listicles as the answer?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really good question and good point. And yeah, I see a lot of folks in the space that will I guess almost put AI search as like their methodology here. So saying like, okay, instead of traditional SEO, you know, the kind of the narrative in the space as a whole is SEO is dying and AI search is taking over. Right. And so everybody's coming to the community and saying okay, we need to put AI search first. We need to do all these things that show up in AI search, but they're sometimes at the expense, kind of like you mentioned, of actual traditional SEO, which still gets like, I don't know what the exact numbers are at this point, but it's. The vast majority of traffic is still coming from Google traditional search engines. And so I think it's a pretty huge mistake to just like say, yeah, we need to do all these AI search tactics even if they potentially have a negative downswing on traditional traffic because that also feeds into what's the next model of, you know, chatgpt or cloud that's going to come out. What are their training models based on? Once you actually do these things for AI search, if that tanks your traditional SEO, how is that going to affect you in the next model launch for AI when you have less traditional visibility so there's all these like cyclical things that can happen when you start to do AI search first and we've noticed that as well. And like, particularly on the listicle side, I think these, I'm surprised that these have worked as long as they have. Honestly we discovered these like I think it's been maybe two or three years that we discovered these overall ranking pretty well and we had discovered a few agencies that had been doing this play for maybe two or three years without getting dinged.
So I was surprised to see that it worked for that long.
And I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure AI models at some point are going to catch up and be like, okay, clearly these listicles are very self promotional. The ones that we're citing, you know, the brand that we're citing is listing themselves first in each one. I'm sure there's going to be model changes there and rightfully so. I mean just based on it's kind of the same nature we see in SEO, right? Of like SEOs discover tactic that works, they exploit it and then the model changes and everybody has to shift kind of their behavior in it. So I'm sure, yeah, we're going to see some, some overhauls that are, you know, long overdue.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: I'm curious over those eight years, you know, that's basically post Penguin, you know where Google came out and basically said, well we're not going actively penalize like we used to.
We're doing it on the back end. Trust us, we know the spam's there, we're going to take care of it on the back end, which on one hand is good, on the other hand.
Then they also came out and released hcu, which me and Darth Na, my friend Matt Brooks at seoteric we think was actually much more associated with a lack of reputation, a lack of brand entity, a lack of links close to seed and distance from seed.
We think those are much more as well as, you know, the cynical perspective of Google trimming the Internet of content that it can't make money off of.
So I'm curious from a algorithm side, from a link building perspective, what has it been like with your clients when it comes to the white hat, black hat discussion, where do you draw the link lines as far as sustainability or tactics?
Is it bright red lines, is it shades of gray and willingness to accept certain levels of risk? Where's your head at and where's your, where's your approach?
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. It usually starts with on a per client basis and really just having a discussion with them on like what is the business model here that they're doing and what is the longevity that they're going for. So if it's like a traditional client of ours tends to be in B2B SaaS and so they tend to have a long term outlook on growth overall and looking at project, you know, one to five years in the future of where they want to be from an organic search standpoint.
And for all of those clients, I pretty much never recommend anything that's even remotely in a gray area for that reason because we've just seen so many times that like, yes, those things can work on maybe a one to six month basis and we see some good results from them. But there's just a, it's a ticking time bomb, right? It's like inevitable that if you do these things and especially if you're promotional about them in any way, we've seen that in the space before too. You're just kind of asking to get burned at a certain point. And, and when we, you know, when we have these larger contracts, we're working with large companies, there's a lot on the line from not only like a reputation standpoint of just our business as a whole, but just the liability, right, of like creating sort of these negative trends and patterns on their sites or the ones kind of implementing it. So we, we try to steer clear of all that kind of risk if it's a company that, and there may be like an affiliate based model or they're just a sheer traffic based play and they're going for kind of, you know, growth via ads and they're maybe in a space that's more of a gray area like they want to rank for maybe it's like sports betting or casinos or anything like that. We don't take those on very often, but there are some times that we do and in those cases we have open discussions with that given client and just say like, what is your risk tolerance here? Like, do you guys want to do something that's a little more gray area, something that's probably not going to work long term for you, but could in the short term. So it really just kind of depends on like their business model. But I'd say, you know, 99% of the time it's something we just tell people to, you know, invest somewhere else if you want to see a return. Because again, this is probably going to be a short stint for you if you do go that direction. But if you're, you know, if you're if you know the risks that you're taking when you're doing it, then you know, I don't, I don't fault anyone for going that route.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: What does it look like right now on like the cleaning up side? Either they've done something bad before or they're experiencing a current iteration of what was much more common in 2012 of a black hat SEO attack. I had a great conversation with Timothy Malmros, who's kind of LinkedIn's sheriff when it comes to new black hat tactics, and we talked a little bit at length about the current canonical trick of purchasing an expired domain spam, loading up that domain and then canonicaling it, cannonballing it towards your end target.
What have you seen as kind of surfaced as kind of the state of play in black hat SEO? The state of SERPs, as always, is kind of pathetic at the moment in certain niches. So what are you seeing on that side?
[00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it just takes so long to recover from stuff like this now. I mean, I, I, I know in the past we had seen faster recovery where, okay, if we just like disavowed, if we just restructured sites, if we just basically removed everything shady that a site was doing, we put it on a better path moving forward, we typically would see comebacks in you know, the realm of like six months or so.
Now I see sites that almost never recover from that, that, that initial high that they get. So if they got, let's say just a ballpark number, it's 200k a month in traffic that they once hit as kind of like an all time high, doing some of these tactics, they may crash down to 20k a month. We never see them ever return anywhere near that kind of all time high or regain those rankings again. This is why I really pushed companies. So like if you're going to invest in SEO and it's a long term thing for you, like just really be cautious about who you're hiring and doing things by the book because like when you do get a penalty like this, whether it's, it's openly stated to you that you have one or not more cases, more often than not, it's not, you know, stated to you, but it's pretty obvious that you were demoted and dinged pretty hard, it's going to be a long road.
Typically speaking, you're not going to ever regain the amount of traffic that you got. And so you're potentially doing some good brand building in the short term there. But yeah, long term, I mean you're going to be more dependent on ads, more dependent on other channels that are are going to be just more profitable long term for you?
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Lily Ray said Google has had a long history of making moves that keep searchers in their own ecosystem.
As impactful as algorithm changes are, I think changes to what shows up in the SERP during those algorithm updates or in between or the launch of new features has just a seismic effect. At the end of the day, what's your strategy for currently for looking at how SERPs are tailoring intent or shaping their results?
Stacking the deck in Google's favor in the ad side of things just happened to be coincidentally that, you know, what was the stat? Oh it just came out. Hold on, let me pull it up. Because it's like Google Ads just did 14% better and organic results suffered 18%. Is it just a huge coincidence that the huge benefit to the ecosystem went to Google over the past year?
What are your thoughts with that in mind?
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. It's something we take into account definitely like when we look at what pages people want to target that we work with. So a lot of folks will come in and say like okay, you know, these are sort of the main core central themes or topics that we want to rank for long term. But then when you actually go to the search results and you look and see what's there, sometimes it's just not even worth it. Right. Like, like you mentioned all the SERP features and changes that they've made recently I've seen pages that are just the entire above the fold is just purely ads. And then if it's maybe a local company, there's going to be more ads within, you know, the maps as well. And then you're getting to the organic content below. It's maybe also covered by Reddit and other forums. So when you're talking about an actual like keyword landing page ranking there, you're not getting any click throughs from that. And so what we're seeing with clients there is just like bridging the gap between what they want long term of like hey I want to rank for project management tools or something. But when you look at this search results, the, the actual CTR there is low. There's too many things going on. Ranking there long term is going to be expensive to get there and also just not worth it from an ROI standpoint. So it's really the number one thing that we work on with clients right now is just like understanding what is the actual SERP landscape there. How has it changed over time? So Looking and seeing like what was it two years ago when they maybe were ranking better and why are they not ranking better now? Or even if they are in that same position, they're maybe noticing less traffic overall, less conversion. So we tend to look at things that are a little more bottom of the funnel or maybe even middle of the funnel here because we've just noticed that like circ features for keywords like that just tend to be less overall. There tends to be higher click through rate from what we've seen for our clients.
When you go more bottom of the funnel, people want a little bit more information there versus top of the funnel. Kind of just tends to get eaten up at this point, right by like an AI overview. There's really not much needed for someone to click through there. That traffic's not super valuable. And we're kind of seeing this on like the data end too. Like people will see. Oh, our traffic and SEO is Declin declined 30% over the last year. But our metrics are the same in terms of leads that are coming through. In terms of revenue driven from organic, how can that be possible? And it's really a lot to do with that. They were just ranking for content that wasn't actually driving any results for them long term. So it's a lot of stuff that's like been top of the funnel. It looks good on paper, right? You look and see how our traffic's going up month over month. We've got a million organic visits a month, but 70% of that is really not doing any heavy lifting for you. And it was really the entire time. It's just kind of middle and bottom of the funne content. And so that's where we've been moving a lot of clients towards is really just showcasing like we can go after these, but they're just really not worth it right now. Like they were a couple years ago when you could actually rank for it. Maybe they drove some good brand awareness, things like that. But now with AI overviews and things getting summarized so quickly, it's like you're not getting any brand awareness from being mentioned in an AI overview at this point. I mean you're seeing maybe a few brands show up in there from an informational standpoint, but it's so little and so few and far between that it's just not worth it from a content perspective in our opinion right now.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: So it's a lot, it's like go deeper, not broader, you know, look and try to dissect, have those interview moments. I know you know For a precast concrete wall client, I interviewed the vp, interviewed the guy that does the oversight of the installation, just to figure out, hey, what are the questions that, you know, you're actually getting at the front end? What are the features of this product that aren't being mentioned? Oh, they want it, the wall, the very expensive wall, not to be dug under. Well, that makes sense. We don't actually say anti dug technology. And well, the keyword volume isn't great because everything's about dogs digging under fences. But if you say that they're looking for that and that's a closing element, then we're going to make a page, we're going to make an article, we're going to add it to a CTA element on all of those product pages, highlighting that like go deeper, not more different. You know, we don't need every single plumber in the world to tell us how to fix a leak, right?
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Exactly. 100%. You know, that's a really good example too. I can't remember what we had a page on our site on usurp sites or agency page or agency site.
We had a page that. I can't remember the exact keyword that it was, but I can try to find it. It was, it was kind of a similar scenario where we were just noticing these questions coming up in sales calls, conversations that we had with clients. And we looked in, in search volumes there and just hrefs and semrush and I think the tool said maybe zero to ten searches a month. So pretty negligible when you look at it from like just a general keyword analysis standpoint. But we were like, hey, this is probably pretty good for sales enablement overall, just something we can send to clients. So we created a page there, wrote content for it, and we looked in our Google search console on analytics and we noticed in the last like 30 or 60 days after publishing that we had over 400 clicks to that page from organic. And so there's a pretty significant amount of people searching for content that you're just not going to find in keyword tools. And I think that's kind of what you're mentioning there too is like, how do you go deeper? How do you go more on the long tail? It's really by understanding like what are people in your space actually searching for? And a lot of the times it's just not online, right? There's just not those pages that show up more commonly when you search for like, how do I rank my, my small business client for this keyword? Like here's all the main terms that you'll see, but those are just like all the kind of head terms, all the generic terms that are all, you know, what everybody's going for, what everybody's trying to rank for. There's so many terms out there that you don't even know. Like what do you initially put into a keyword tool to get that result back to you? And I think that's where you can get a lot of the good information is just talking to more customers, clients, sales calls, and relaying a lot of that into your actual content strategy.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: You said you came out of the local SEO world. I'm curious how that geography is playing into those conversations as you work with, you know, local service providers, contractors or things like that.
I, from what I've seen, I think local SEO is the most vibrant and alive right now. Like some solid local SEO work, some solid local links can really continue to move the needle. It seems like big publishers have lost out a lot in the, in the SEO game, but I feel my perspective, it seems like it's still vibrant and alive.
Is that your understanding too?
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, we don't work with too many local SEO clients anymore these days. And so that was kind of what I did in the early days. But now most of our clients do tend to be more just national and broad. So I'm not trying to rank for anything in local areas. We have a few clients in that kind of realm that we still work with. And yeah, what we've seen move the needle there tends to be a little bit different than traditional. So if we're looking at like a B2B SaaS company, for example, let's just say it's, you know, Monday.com who we've worked with in the past. Our, our goal there was to get stuff ranking for more broad keywords. So they want it to be ranking for anything around project management as a whole. Whether that was for the broad term there or was like their industry specific, you know, segmentation so, you know, construction to other SaaS companies, they have a whole host of different ICPs that they service there. And so the goal there from like a link building and content standpoint is a little bit more broad, a little bit more higher authority domains just in general in space that are good.
The typical plays that we see working well for local is definitely more local publications. So we don't see nearly the same impact on a local business from you know, like a general authority sites as we do a site that is in that local maximum, basically. So looking and seeing like what are good publications in that maybe city, state, or it could be even region if it's a little bit more, bit more broad.
And finding good domains there to get links from tends to move the needle far faster.
So that's what we've seen from local SEO standpoint. But there's a lot of people that are still seeing, I mean, even with kind of the SERP feature, changes in the local areas are still seeing really good results there too. We don't do too much on the local end now, so other people might have more to say on that than me.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: When it comes to SEO, there's a lot of opinions here and there. So I'm going to give you a soapbox for a moment for you to step on and speak to your fellow SEOs.
What would you say if you had their attention for a minute?
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good question. It's, it's broad, but I could go a few different ways. So I think I'll, I'll take it in the, the direction of a little bit of the AI sort of search trends with Google and SEO as a whole. So we can kind of blend the two here. I think the biggest narrative that I'm seeing right now on the AI search end is that a lot of these AI tools are able to replace traditional sort of strategy. And it's a lot of the things that I've seen in the SEO space as a whole, maybe not from some of the folks that I know and trust as experts in the space, but more so just holistically in the space of people talking about SEO in general.
I think there's this narrative right now that a lot of these tools, be it Claude, be it Manus, chatgpt, whatever you want to use right now, can basically be served to replace current SEO strategy of what folks are doing. So not necessarily augmenting their work or making them more productive, but actually replacing current strategy by just feeding it proper information.
And one thing we've, or one thing I've noticed in particular is that you really need to know what you're doing with these tools for them to be effective in the first place. So a good example I like to share is that I was looking to buy, put it basically putting in an offer on a piece of real estate, and I was wanting something particular in the contract. And so I went to Claude and I just said, how do I describe this in legalese? Right. And so made a little bit of a paragraph there, send it to my attorney and he said, the first thing he told me was, did you put this in the chat GPT? Like, how did you make this? And I said, yeah. And he's like, okay, I could tell, right? And we need to change a few things here. We need to change a few things there.
And so I think that's, you know, indicative of SEO as well, right? Like, if you don't know what you're looking at here, it sounds good. Like, and anything you put into ChatGPT, it spits it back out. And it's like, oh yeah, that sounds really good, right? If you send that to like, like my mom who has no idea what SEO is, she'd be like, yeah, I mean that sounds technically, right? Like it's using terms that sound correct. But when you actually know what you're looking at, you can identify a lot of issues there. And a lot of what AI tools do right now is just circulating content that already exists in the public domain and not stuff that's either proprietary to you or based on your own experience.
So looking at like a strategy wise standpoint, I mean, it's impossible to create a really good quality strategy with just going into AI tools without feeding it information that you have on your own that's not publicly accessible. So if I were to go in and just tell it to do a strategy for my client and just say, okay, cool, I can hand them off this good looking report, it just wouldn't contain the proper information there. And I think a lot of people are putting the cart before the horse in that sense of like, AI works really good if you have the expertise to relay to it and feed through it. It doesn't work really good if you' just relying on it from like a baseline standpoint. And so we see this a lot with like content strategy. When we're talking to clients or talking to folks in the SEO space, they're always talking about how, okay, cool, we can publish 10, 20, 30 more articles per month using AI. And it's like, well, you probably don't need to publish that many in the first place, number one. But number two, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse in that like you, you have all this great information from a brand standpoint, but you're just running chatgpt, you know, as a basic function to create more content for you without actually running some of that expertise through it and building your own database, building your own knowledge base that you can leverage to just improve existing content that you're doing. So all in all, TLDR is Really that AI tools are super good if you feed it the right information and if you have a wealth of knowledge that it can base off of, that's based, based in hard data, facts that you have, experience that you have, et cetera. It's really, really bad. And at least in its current state, this may improve over time ob the rate at which AI is improving, but at the current state, it's just really bad to produce good quality SEO strategies. And I've yet to see a single company that said, you know, hey, we're, we're moving to AI, we're doing all our content through it. I've yet to see performance sustain or improve from when they had made that announcement. And in fact, I've seen the direct opposite, where brands are just, you know, yeah, they're shooting up for a couple months because they publish, you know, a thousand new pages, but in three months from now, all that traffic is gone. They're also ranking worse for the keywords that they actually needed to rank for.
So I think there's just a lot of kind of BS out there in the, the AI search space. And that's kind of the, the long and short of my rant.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Love it.
Bringing the interview back to kind of your core expertise.
I'm curious, when it comes to link attributes of what is your top three that you're looking for when you're like, okay, I want to get links for this and they need to have these criteria. It needs to be this, this, or this. Is it strictly anchor text? Is it being a brand? Is it the contact, the immediate context before or after the link? Is it the overall health of the domain? Is this site smells bad, what is it?
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. It's kind of a mix of all the above. I mean, first and foremost we would like to look at, is this an actual company that you're getting a link from? Like, is this an actual brand domain website company that has either been around for a while or you think will be around long into the future? Like, is this a legitimate company that you're getting a link from, or do you open the site and you instantly as an SEO, go and say, okay, okay, this is clearly like a content farm of some sort.
Whether it's openly disclosing that it's selling guest posts or backlinks or whatever it is, you know, whether they're openly saying that, they almost certainly are. And you can do that kind of visual test pretty quickly there. And so the number one factor that we tend to look at is going to be like, is this an actual company domain, an actual legitimate business, and then looking at the profile metrics of it. So looking and seeing at proxy metrics that we can gather, like a mixture tends to be of maybe an authority score of some sort, whether that's semrush or hrefs combined with the traffic that they're getting and then combined with the overall health of the site. So like, what is that traffic pattern looking like over time? What kind of keywords are they actually ranking for? Like, are they ranking for legitimate business terms or are they ranking for, you know, what age is Justin Bieber or something? You know, like we want to make sure that the, the link that we're actually getting a client on this domain is relevant and sense. So looking, you know, wrapping it all together, it's really, number one, is this a good quality business overall? Number two, do they have a good quality, just like authority, generally speaking, in that space? Like, do you search terms that are relevant to that business and they show up? Do they have good quality content there that ranks well for good quality keywords?
And then number three, tying that all together, like, is the actual traffic healthy there? Is it relevant to you? Like, if we were to actually place a link there, does it make sense? Contextually, those are really what we look at. And then things like anchor text and surroundings supporting Collins are definitely important too, but those will come kind of secondary to that initial review to make sure that this is even a domain that's worth going after.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Love that. Give a shout out to your company again if you've got any resources out there or if you're doing any shows or have anything that people should know about, I'll make sure to link it in the show notes, but go ahead and shout out.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah, well, we're userp IO so US E R P IO and you can find anything about us on there, anything about the team and some resources and webinars, you know, case studies, methodology is all on there. So you can get an idea of kind of what we do. And I'd say go check out the state of backlinks report that we have on there. We tend to update that usually once a year. We've done that for a couple years now where we just survey folks in the space overall and just get an understanding of their thoughts and their data on. Is link building still important for them, their clients? What kind of results are they seeing and expecting? And has some good information on there that you can check out.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: Fantastic. Thanks for your time, Jeremy.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me.
